Students Speak Out: Minnesota
Haha Too bad you fail! Were is the cash anyway? outrageous expectations?
My best friend was shocked when she arrived at High school. She is expected to not ever miss a day of school. Not too bad, until you hear the rest.
If she does miss a day, too bad she has no way to make it up, the student to teacher ratio is so high, they can not give her make up work (besides the fact that it is verbal note taking lessons so making it up would be hard anyway) She then found out if you miss 8 days of school Haha to bad!!!! You fail the class!!!! I looked at her in shock like WHAT?!? What would happen if students have a family issue or it is an excused absence? You are pretty much out of luck. There is not too much you can do about it, and there is no extra credit. I told her that the system was crazy expecting that out of students. I understand wanting kids to come and learn to be responsible about attending, but at least my schools have had a way if I go to the teachers I can get the work I missed the next day, but not at her high school. There is not enough money for teachers to be able to keep trap of one student’s work that they missed anyway, since there’s so many students per teacher.
Thoughts . . .? I know Annie was talking about expectations out of students in her recent forums, could the reasons so many of the students fail, or the graduation rate is so low because we have some outrageous expectations?
If she does miss a day, too bad she has no way to make it up, the student to teacher ratio is so high, they can not give her make up work (besides the fact that it is verbal note taking lessons so making it up would be hard anyway) She then found out if you miss 8 days of school Haha to bad!!!! You fail the class!!!! I looked at her in shock like WHAT?!? What would happen if students have a family issue or it is an excused absence? You are pretty much out of luck. There is not too much you can do about it, and there is no extra credit. I told her that the system was crazy expecting that out of students. I understand wanting kids to come and learn to be responsible about attending, but at least my schools have had a way if I go to the teachers I can get the work I missed the next day, but not at her high school. There is not enough money for teachers to be able to keep trap of one student’s work that they missed anyway, since there’s so many students per teacher.
Thoughts . . .? I know Annie was talking about expectations out of students in her recent forums, could the reasons so many of the students fail, or the graduation rate is so low because we have some outrageous expectations?
Tags: absence, cash, expectations, fail, outrageous
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Michael Atherton on
-
Carolyn wrote: I think the greatest gift we can give students is the opportunity to see problem solving in action.
"Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." Saint Francis of Assisi
The problem on this discussion is not difficult to solve.
I agree. You can solve it by railing against it or moving beyond it. The question is which solution involves the most wisdom. That, I suppose, is an individual decision.
I have grown weary of the denial of the existence of the negative...as if we should just change the way we think...think positive and all will be wonderful.
"..wisdom to know the difference." I think this is definitely one problem that is better solved by acknowledging its unfairness and forging onward to a successful outcome, rather than trying to change the system. BTW, just changing the way we think is the basis of cognitive therapy. There's a great scene in "Life is Beautiful" when Guido is carrying an anvil:
Guido, "I can't take it anymore! I'm putting this down. I'll tell them I can't do it. What can they do to me?"
Other prisoner, "They'll kill you!"
Guido, "Where does this thing go?"
Are you invested in finding problems or invested in finding solutions? Personally, I think that's often the difference between liberals who are invested in (perpetuating) problems (which is what Multiculturalism does) and conservatives who are invested in solutions (or often ignoring problems). Depressively, there is some evidence that indicates that people's political orientations as well as their location on the optimism/pessimism scale have genetic bases. We maybe just talking past each other. ;-)
One of the points that I've been trying to make is that Americans are lucky to have choices. In most of the Third World there are few if any choices and often the only solution is to work though a problem and hope for the best. Standing around complaining doesn't get you anywhere, and as in Guido's situation, often gets you killed.
This is confusing to me. Especially, since the concern is enrollment decline in MPS. On the one hand there is the critique of schools not reforming themselves and on the other, asking students to just deal?
This is a just a level of analysis problem. As I've already pointed out, I believe that there are separate and reciprocal responsibilities for the District and for students. It's one thing to say that the MPS need to do everything within their power to maximize the opportunities for minority students and to raise educational standards. But it's another to say that an individual should maximize their own opportunities by tooling the system as best they can. Social activists and radicals who focus on change often do so at the cost of their own futures. See "Sophie Scholl: The Final Days." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0426578/
-
-
"...However, in order to make this happen we need to the create whole new society."
Julie, just curious, who are you quoting here? Brett?
-
Permalink Reply by Brett on -
Is the attitude being applied in a way which will benifit the well being of our society for the better, or working with the system we have now that is failing many people and encouraging it?
-
-
Good observation and good question. I was trying to show that it's not exactly clear whether this teacher's policy will benefit students or harm them. It is clear that Annie is threatened by it. So what if the policy benefits some students, harms none (because we only know what the teacher has said, not what they actually do), and threatens some? In the final analysis is it clear that this policy has no benefits? Of course there is a contemporary education axiom that says that education should never be threatening, however I don't think this is possible or wise. Good education should make you uncomfortable at times.
My argument has been that it may be possible for the policy to benefit students and that one should consider whether their own fear or discomfort justifies changing the policy for everyone.
-
Permalink Reply by Brett on
-
I think that is exactly the point, if you can make education challenging but not too difficult, also threatening at times (but not too much,) you will be fine. I just don't know if this is really what we should justify as a good policy to do that or not yet . . . . I am going to have to see this policy along with others like it in real action to really take a firm side on the outcome of its implications.
I suppose if you don't like something in our democracy it is your responsibility to work on it, and you may never please everyone with your change(s) but in the end the right policy will work for the most people.
Is this policy something we should be working to tweak or just leave alone? Can we do more with this policy to best fit our group of students? Can we answer that right now?
-
-
Brett wrote: Is this policy something we should be working to tweak or just leave alone? Can we do more with this policy to best fit our group of students? Can we answer that right now?
Personally, it seems to be a great policy to get people thinking and learning. ;-) I once knew a sociology professor who taught a class in marriage and family who offered an 'A' to anyone who got a divorce during the class. :-) I don't believe it will ever be possible to get education tweaked just right for the proper amount of challenge and threat for everyone. What's challenging for one person is extremely threatening for another (as are some of the ideas in this discussion ;-). You almost always control your own destiny: if it's too threatening don't buy in (but don't take the chance to be challenged away from others because of your reluctance to try).
Is this policy something we should be working to tweak or just leave alone? Can we do more with this policy to best fit our group of students? Can we answer that right now?
It's your call. If you think it will harm more people than it helps then I think you should try and change it, but I don't think you should change it out of your own fear of how it might affect only you.
-
-
Julie wrote: Just because our society offers options and has some degree of freedom of choice, doesn't make the unreasonably high expectations or the cut-throat nature of it right.
For better or worse, unreasonable and cut-throat are often reality. For many many reasons it's not possible to make society nice for everyone, if only because there's always variability in people's definition of "nice," or "safe," or "good," or whatever you want to call it. The closer you get to the top the more cut-throat it often is. If people want to achieve great things then they should be aware of this minor detail.
Do we really like to see people failing in our society? No one likes the sight of a fellow human being homeless on the corner and it makes us all uncomfortable unless one is completely callous. Why? Because it reminds us that something is wrong, somewhere, somehow we are failing each other even if at that moment we ourselves are doing okay.
So who defines success? You? I am only concerned with giving people the tools for success. You can't force people to use them. Not everyone is interested in your vision of success.
I guess I'm completely callous. Seeing homeless people doesn't make me uncomfortable, because I don't necessarily think something is wrong. Some people choose homelessness, some people do not. I know having been there.
Maybe it makes you feel as though you are failing someone because in the same situation you would want someone to help you. But please keep in mind that not everyone might want your help or at least your version of it.
-
Permalink Reply by Julie Johnson on
-
So who defines success? You?
No, I am just a recycler of ideas that have already been defined by greater minds than mine. The ideas that I typically tend to recycle are ones that support the collective success of people vs. the success of the individual at the expense of others.
Not everyone is interested in your vision of success
Sadly, this is true.
Some people choose homeslessness, some do not. I know having been there.
Yes, I realize this. My statement certainly referred to those who have not chosen to be homeless. I am also interested in those who choose homelessness and I do wonder what is going on there that would cause them to choose this for themselves. But I digress from Brett's original post-this was originally just an example to illustrate the bigger point that I was making about becoming a more supportive society in general for the good of others. I do not see in Brett's problem that he is posing how the solution being resorted to is good for both student and teacher-and there could be a good solution for both as in Carolyn's brainstorming of getting students to help with some of the classroom management.
-
-
Julie, I'm still curious. Who were you quoting?
-
-
Ah, I was just quoting my friend, Kevin Daly who got his ideas from: [1] “Discourse on the Origin of Inequality” Jean-Jacques Rousseau, [2] “Neuromancer” William Gibson, [4] “Plato’s Republic” Book III and [5] “Discourse on the Origin of Inequality” Jean-Jacques Rousseau.
But I took the post down because it digressed too much away from Brett's original post. I was just wanting to share what Kevin had written because I liked it.
-
-
Thanks. Actually this was very important to me. I've been doing some reading in educational philosophy and I've also been reading a book called, "Rousseau's Dog." http://www.amazon.com/Rousseaus-Dog-Great-Thinkers-Enlightenment/dp...
I have this intense curiosity about where ideas come from. :-)
About Students Speak Out
Citizens League
created this social network on Ning.
© 2008 Created by Citizens League on Ning. Create your own social network
